Faith Vs. Religion Vs. Santa Claus Vs. The Martians

But you can test the historicity of the bible. Seriously. as i have previously posted we can look at the arguments of the early church itself, the attacks made by detractors, and the comments of neutral observers (historians and the like).

So yes, i will go into schools and teach students the facts of Christianity, i'll also teach my own kids the same thing- and i'll explain (to the best of my knowledge) what religions involve, and when asked i'll tell those same listeners why i think those religions are wrong.

Trust me, i don't force people to my way of thinking, to do would be stupid and counter productive- instead i'll keep presenting the facts (something Dawkins could not comprehend in his recent debate with Dr John Lennox), and praying for people- for me to do less would be evil.

Hehe, Glen, you so crazy.

You can test for historical accuracy for certain events in the Bible (not all) but you can't test for miracles or for Jesus being the son of god.

You're still missing the point. As you said, you would have no problem with people teaching their children about Christianity if it was fact. As I also mentioned before, to many, many people, it is just straight, undebatable fact. Should I not teach my child that the stove is hot, purely because I can't prove beyond shadow of a doubt that it would hurt them if they touched it? (in before 'OMGLOL YOU CAN NOOB' - You can show me burn marks + signs of injury, you can never, ever prove something 'hurts')

Besides which, I've seen things performed in Jesus' name that I can't explain by science. That offers us a feasible 'test' for miracles, and at the very least, offers evidence supporting God's benevolence, weighed against the absolute zero evidence that God doesn't exist.

You said that to some people it's a fact. That makes it subjective, not an objective fact, and as such, it shouldn't be taught as a fact.

Then what should be taught as fact? Almost anything could be considered subjective on that scale.

Personally, I have never been shot. People have told me that getting shot is bad, but who am I to believe them? Ergo, I should teach my children that getting shot might be bad, and they should experience it themselves to make up their own mind.

Being shot has measurable, provable, repeatable effects. The analogy doesn't hold up.

Denying God has measurable results too- try reading Genesis 19:23-29... Now he's just being facetious!

Marc wrote:Being shot has measurable, provable, repeatable effects. The analogy doesn't hold up.

See

Simmo wrote:As I also mentioned before, to many, many people, it is just straight, undebatable fact.

Just because there are effects that you refuse to or can't see, doesn't mean they're not there.

Also, remember this:

Simmo wrote:As I also mentioned before, to many, many people, it is just straight, undebatable fact.

and this:

Simmo wrote:As I also mentioned before, to many, many people, it is just straight, undebatable fact.

and finally, these last few points:

1. Straight
2. Undebatable
3. Fact

And hopefully I won't have to say it again.

Well, I rebutted that by saying "it's a subjective fact." You can't answer my argument by repeating your original point. Also, I said "measurable, repeatable effects." Effects you can test for and prove, not effects that believers assure you are there.

Anyway, I know it's a pipe dream to think that Christians or other religious types would raise their kids not to be religious. And I doubt I could keep my own biases out of raising my kids.

Just thought i'd throw in that the Codex Sinaiticus is now being published online...

Check it out- the facts are there!

Awww, Glen. You missed out on the perfect opportunity to say "The truth is out there!"

Ok, an older version of the same document is available, I don't see the big deal really.

I feel that this thread has reached an impasse and that we can more profitably debate things that we are not so entrenched on.