Re: And how come Batman doesn’t dance anymore?

by Andrew.C on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:34 pm

Nick wrote:I don't really think you can argue that he is responsible for killings post villains incarceration. He is a democratic hero. He believes in the justice system and that but he can't help that local correction facility officers are useless.

But c'mon, the Joker is the king bad ass. He has all the crazy peoples in the city to break him free, and Batman knows this. Batman also is aware of the incompetence of the officers. You sure he is not in some part responsible?

Nick wrote:
Andrew.C wrote:This sort of thing also occurs when he kills Liam Neeson in the first one: "I wont kill you, but I don't have to save you" sort of thing. Is there a difference?

I think there is.

Alex wrote:Whatever, it made sense in my head.

I think you've both been mesmerised by Bale's 'pure physique'. What about those thought experiments that involve you on a train, in the drivers compartment, and the train is speeding. You see on the track ahead of you a group of workers who are trapped on the track/can't hear you (whatever), and the train will soon hit them and kill them. There is also another track that diverts off from your current track. There's only one guy stuck on that track (for some reason). You can actively press the switch dealie to change tracks and 'actively' be responsible for turning the train to kill the one dude, or just let the train run its course and kill the group of people. Also the breaks don't work.
I'm not sure if this applies, but it does kinda confuse the issue of the 'active', 'passive' split.

It is kinda different since Neeson was totally bad (or was he?). But I thought Batdude didn't care if people were bad... (du du daaaa)

by Nick on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:12 pm

Andrew.C wrote:But c'mon, the Joker is the king bad ass. He has all the crazy peoples in the city to break him free, and Batman knows this. Batman also is aware of the incompetence of the officers. You sure he is not in some part responsible?

No he's not, I am very sure.

Andrew.C wrote:What about those thought experiments that involve you on a train, in the drivers compartment, and the train is speeding. You see on the track ahead of you a group of workers who are trapped on the track/can't hear you (whatever), and the train will soon hit them and kill them. There is also another track that diverts off from your current track. There's only one guy stuck on that track (for some reason). You can actively press the switch dealie to change tracks and 'actively' be responsible for turning the train to kill the one dude, or just let the train run its course and kill the group of people. Also the breaks don't work.
I'm not sure if this applies, but it does kinda confuse the issue of the 'active', 'passive' split.

I think you have gone a bit off topic on this one. This is about choosing for the greater good but I would just like to corect it a little because the choice at the moment is obvious. The only one guy side is supposed to be related to you, a son is the one I hear most, basically it's a choice between like 10 strangers or your son.

by Andrew.C on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:30 pm

Nick wrote:No he's not, I am very sure.

Thumbs down. Thumbs down!

Nick wrote:I think you have gone a bit off topic on this one. This is about choosing for the greater good but I would just like to corect it a little because the choice at the moment is obvious. The only one guy side is supposed to be related to you, a son is the one I hear most, basically it's a choice between like 10 strangers or your son.

I don't know, I think it was apt. The greater good? Batman should be a raging whirlwind of murderous stabbings if it was for the greater good; as long as he stuck to killing the bad dudes, which he almost certainly would.
The thought experiment stands as is, no editing. Yes there is the relationship one, but I fail to see how the lack of the relationship in this one makes the choice "obvious". Please explain.

I gots to go to bed now (test in morning), but I be back at lunch time tomorrow.

by Simmo! on Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:18 pm

Andy wrote:Batman should be a raging whirlwind of murderous stabbings if it was for the greater good; as long as he stuck to killing the bad dudes.

I wholeheatedly agree with this statement. I think that all law enforcers should have the right to not only decide who the 'bad dudes' are, but also judge them and carry out said judgement. ESPECIALLY self-appointed law enforcers, like the batman.

It's a good thing that the batsuit comes equipped with paradox absorbing crumple zones, because otherwise a whirlwind of judgemental murderous stabbings might make him stop and think...

by Andrew.C on Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:14 pm

Wait, what are we even talking about now? I don't deny that allowing an individual free-reign over the judgement and sentencing (a.k.a stabbing) of criminals would not work in real life, but this is Batman. In fact, it's only because noone in real life (we assume) is nearly as cool as Batman; if they were, then I would think about allowing them that status. This is because we all know Batman has the skillz to pick out those who are evil (possibly because anyone in these fictional cities who decides to be evil goes about it by either becoming an over-extending hyper-master-criminal bent on nothing less than total and absolute citywide nihilistic mayhem, or to become a henchman to one of these aforementioned SuperVillains and exhibit no attempt to hide this fact by shambling around in large bands of like minded mini-criminals clad in uniforms emblazened with the emblem of their favourite baddie commiting constant crimes in a futile attempt to outdo each others clan, futile since we all know that this was perfected by the 'FootClan' from TMNJ. So I don't think it's too hard for Batman to spot the bad-dudes.

So my point was that assuming Batman can spot exactly who the bad dudes are, is he not in any way responsible if he doesn't do all he can to stop those bad dudes? Especially if those bad dudes happen to be superevil.

by Scorpio on Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:08 am

What if I try to be as cool as Batman?
I am all for vigilante justice in this shit hole of a society.

Will you all support me in this endeavor and give advice?
I'll also need someone to make cool shit.
Pirate

by Nick on Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:02 am

Trizender wrote:I'll also need someone to make cool shit.

Ah, for that you need a token black scientist.

by Glenjamin on Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:30 pm

1. Batman chooses not to put himself in God's shoes- in which he believes that the taking of human life is wrong, which is why he works to incarcerate the villains. but i don't think he knows the villains will escape, in fact there are several who get locked up and stay that way for good (read the damn comics your own damn selves!).

2. Yes. no one is forcing him to do stuff, he is choosing to hurt/kill/mess with people. i understand that he may have a mental disorder, which is why he is afforded leniency by the state (put in Arkham Asylum rather than general prison, or executed). Yes, from just the movie i would say he's responsible for his actions, should be restrained and pitied... like a fool.

3. Batman does in fact kill Superman (in the apocalypse series), so some would say he is in the way that Darth Vader is better than the emperor, Kerrigan is better than everyone, I am better than crevu and Rock beats scissors.

by Scorpio on Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:51 pm

Glenjamin wrote:1. Batman chooses not to put himself in God's shoes- in which he believes that the taking of human life is wrong, which is why he works to incarcerate the villains. but i don't think he knows the villains will escape, in fact there are several who get locked up and stay that way for good (read the damn comics your own damn selves!).

Does God wear shoes?
And if so, could God make a pair of shoes so heavy that he could not walk in them?
Pirate

by Andrew.C on Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:57 pm

Trizender wrote:Will you all support me in this endeavor and give advice?

Yes, I will. But mainly in the way that people support and give advice to their favourite sporting club: "Go, Trev, woo wooo. Go, Trev, woo wooo," and after you've gone and tried to apprehend someone, and screw it up, I can be all like "Yeah, that really wasn't the best move. What he should have done was gone in with the arm twist then the pin-down." And so forth. All from the comfort of my armchair.

Trev wrote:I'll also need someone to make cool shit.

Well, I don't know about cool shit. If you give me sacks of money, then I'll give it my best shot... apart from that I could, ummm, lend you my backpack? It's black! It can totally blend in with your get-up. Also I can make you sandwiches for your lunch.

by Nick on Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:01 pm

Trizender wrote:And if so, could God make a pair of shoes so heavy that he could not walk in them?

by Andrew.C on Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:01 pm

Glenjamin wrote:3. Batman does in fact kill Superman (in the apocalypse series), so some would say he is in the way that Darth Vader is better than the emperor, Kerrigan is better than everyone, I am better than crevu and Rock beats scissors.

You killed crevu? Hmm, good for you. No wonder I felt that relaxation in the force.

And hold on just a minute. Batman killed Superman?? Sure that makes him totally bad-ass and I love him for it, but Superman?! Superman is like the uberest of good/moral people. That would, like, make Batman super evil. But they probably had an explanation for that in the comics... (And No I will not read them.)

by Andrew.C on Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:04 pm

Ha!

I

that picture response.

by Glenjamin on Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:34 pm

Andrew.C wrote: And hold on just a minute. Batman killed Superman?? Sure that makes him totally bad-ass and I love him for it, but Superman?! Superman is like the uberest of good/moral people. That would, like, make Batman super evil. But they probably had an explanation for that in the comics... (And No I will not read them.)

Superman goes insane, Batman tries to bring him to his senses, Justice league all get killed (bar the Dark Knight), Batman shoots Superman with Kryptonite tipped weapon, Superman becomes sufficiently weakend for the Bat to mushroom him and end his reign of terror- at the last minute Superman repents and chooses to die rather than live on...

in an aside- he's also been killed by someone called "Doomsday", but returned alive afterward, which i'm pretty certain happened in the Batman V Superman one as well- and Superman has "killed" batman too- but later on it was discovered that Batman faked him own death...

by Marc on Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:37 pm

Glenjamin wrote:
Andrew.C wrote: And hold on just a minute. Batman killed Superman?? Sure that makes him totally bad-ass and I love him for it, but Superman?! Superman is like the uberest of good/moral people. That would, like, make Batman super evil. But they probably had an explanation for that in the comics... (And No I will not read them.)

Superman goes insane, Batman tries to bring him to his senses, Justice league all get killed (bar the Dark Knight), Batman shoots Superman with Kryptonite tipped weapon, Superman becomes sufficiently weakend for the Bat to mushroom him and end his reign of terror- at the last minute Superman repents and chooses to die rather than live on...

It was the exact plot of the film trilogy: Star Wars.