Re: Truth is beauty, beauty truth, sir!

Glenjamin · by Glenjamin on Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:41 am

I doubt that most schools (note, i said most) need assemblies every week, and i doubt many (note, i said many) students benefit from mandatory sport. Why don't they work out a system that does what Schools were originally built to do- prepare kids for working life (I think the primary system is relatively good, so i'm focusing more on High schools here), setup some more of those trade schools and similar- get kids doing (and learning) what they'll do for a living. You know, so they'll be good at it?

Andrew.C · by Andrew.C on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:54 am

Just to make things clear, I did agree with you about the assemblies and sport thing...

But I definitely don't agree about the turning of high schools into training facilities (although you may have been being sarcastic. It's hard to tell). I've had a little problem with this for some time, about how the 'education' system has progressively been becoming a 'training' system, where the younger generation are just taught how to do things rather than how things work, and 'why' they work. This is even at the university level. I'm pretty sure that's not what the original idea of what education was about (or maybe it was. But even if it was, I don't really agree).

So, I don't have any alternative ideas for how the system should work (maybe there isn't any), but I just think it's a tragedy, and that we'll lose (maybe not) a lot of the potential great minds if we just teach them 'how to get a job'.

Glenjamin · by Glenjamin on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:54 pm

That's exactly what modern 'schools' started as- teaching kids how to do what they were going to do anyway. I agree that giving kids a chance to achieve their potential is an awesome goal, but the reality is that many don't want to go there, they are happy learning to be fitters and turners, or electricians- and they will excel in that field. Does that mean they've wasted their lives? I would suggest no, they have used their gifts in a way that they enjoy... I agree (at least I think we're on the same page here) that kids shouldn't be limited by anything other than laws and sensibilities (the idea that we should not devote our lives to mooching off the Dole), so I propose a dual-action education system. Kids who show a complete apathy to higher education should enter trade schools, where they can learn in a hands on environment and be motivated to excel in their career, while others who show a greater aptitude for higher learning should be funneled into schooling that encourages, edifies and above all cares for them in their chosen paths... a system likes this couldn't be too rigid in that if after a semester a kid develops skills and a passion for an area they aren't focused on they have the freedom to switch... but the current system of "the kids who can memorise stuff best/ write a certain way" get the best marks isn't amplifying education, it stifles it so that only the learners who benefit from didactic and auditory styles get ahead, and those who benefit from a kinaesthetic or visual style get shunted into "the arts"- Basically I propose a complete revolution and rebuild of the current Australian Education system, to that end in Trevtopia I call Minister for Education and Trades.

Andrew.C · by Andrew.C on Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:45 am

Glenjamin wrote:That's exactly what modern 'schools' started as-

I was more referring to old, old, ‘schools’, like Plato’s Academy, of which I know little, but I think it was more ‘academic’ than training.

Glenjamin wrote:so I propose a dual-action education system.

Yeah, I agreed with the majority of that. I was thinking something like that myself, but then thought that some people would say that the system works well enough as it is. Which I guess is a fair point.

Glenjamin · by Glenjamin on Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:57 am

But does the current system work? so many kids getting to a school certificate level without the ability to read properly? others with only a vague understanding of geography... and yet every kid has a full understanding of sex and how to get contraception by the end of year 7... we need to expect more of our education dept. not the teachers as they (most of them) work bloody hard, but the system behind them needs to think long term and less about $$$.

Andrew.C · by Andrew.C on Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:06 am

I don't know that they have a 'full understanding' of sex... just because they're having sex doesn't mean they understand it. In fact, that fact seems to point to the contrary. And knowing about contraception is surely a good thing. Anyways, that is a little off topic, sorry.

Yeah, I think the system could be better, sure. Coincidentally I was just reading this article now.

Why Are Americans Resistant to Science?

Article wrote:It all begins in childhood.
In a review titled “Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science”, two Yale professors of psychology [...] posit that the winter of our ignorance began in childhood. They review evidence from developmental psychology suggesting that some resistance to scientific ideas is a human universal.

[...]

"The main source of resistance concerns what children know before their exposure to science. Recent psychological research makes it clear that babies are not "blank slates"; even 1-year-olds possess a rich understanding of both the physical world (a "naïve physics") and the social world (a "naïve psychology").

[...]

However, these intuitions also sometimes clash with scientific discoveries about the nature of the world, making certain scientific facts difficult to learn.

[...]

One important bias is that children naturally see the world in terms of design and purpose. For instance, 4-year-olds insist that everything has a purpose, including lions ("to go in the zoo") and clouds ("for raining"), a propensity called "promiscuous teleology". Additionally, when asked about the origin of animals and people, children spontaneously tend to provide and prefer creationist explanations.

[...]

Another consequence of people's common-sense psychology is dualism, the belief that the mind is fundamentally different from the brain. This belief comes naturally to children. Preschool children will claim that the brain is responsible for some aspects of mental life, typically those involving mental work, such as solving math problems. But preschoolers will also claim that the brain is not involved in a host of other activities, such as loving one's brother, or brushing one's teeth. This dualism is not restricted to young children.

[...]

The developmental data suggest that resistance to science will arise in children when scientific claims clash with early emerging, intuitive expectations. This resistance will persist through adulthood if the scientific claims are contested within a society, and it will be especially strong if there is a nonscientific alternative that is rooted in common sense and championed by people who are thought of as reliable and trustworthy.

What’s to be done?
The answer of course is what we knew intuitively all along: education, starting at a young age. This requires serious investment in science education. It requires a national commitment and political will.

Something does need to be done.

Glenjamin · by Glenjamin on Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:33 am

Article wrote: Additionally, when asked about the origin of animals and people, children spontaneously tend to provide and prefer creationist explanations.

Curiouser and curiouser, considering many educational institutions (including pre-schools) in the states won't allow creationistic views

Andrew.C · by Andrew.C on Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:35 pm

True. But I think that was just their point: that it's an innate attitude. When they say "creation" I don't think they mean specific christian doctrine, but rather just the vibe of animals being created as they are nowadays.

Groove Champion · by Groove Champion on Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:20 pm

Glenjamin wrote:
Article wrote: Additionally, when asked about the origin of animals and people, children spontaneously tend to provide and prefer creationist explanations.

Curiouser and curiouser, considering many educational institutions (including pre-schools) in the states won't allow creationistic views

Children get brain-washed before they start school.
Unlike you Glen, most people don't actually choose their religion.
Pirate