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Log in(Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
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(Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Nick Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:37 am
Ok, first off let me just say that my rants don't always come out making sense at the best of times so when I try to type them I might cause small countries to disappear. Second, I am not having ago at any vegetarians I know. I don't have a problem with anyone that doesn't eat meat/fish/dairy because of health or taste issues that fine that makes sense, but the jerks on there moral high horse really piss me off. Anyway I was in the car and just happened to be listening to Triple J and at the moment they are doing a food week. The show on at the time was, Hack. There "funky" and youth orientated current affairs show. This is the conversation that I stumbled across...
This proceeded to get me very mad, very fast. I really HATE it when people crap on about not eating meat because of animal cruelty issues. The majority of the meat, poultry and fish in this country come from Australia, and there are things that prevent animal cruelty, I think there called laws. Also we have people to enforce these laws, police I think there called as well as the RSPCA and a number of other body's that look into these things so I can safely say then, that animals are treated well and killed humanly. So that gets me onto the comment of the right to take a life of another sentient being, so the obvious thing of animals killing other animals for food leaps to mind for that one. Why can't we eat another animal for food, what reason do you have for judging us on that one? See animals or meat is something that occurs naturally same with vegetables and fruits and so on. We have been eating them for thousands of years, it's what we have evolved to eat. Meat was one of the key factors in the increase of our brains. When we started scavenging the leftover meat from a carcous we started getting more proteins, this was very important in our development of our species. One thing we didn't start doing was eating iron/b12 enriched foods. When you have to start eating modified or vitamin enriched food doesn't that tell you that you are missing something in your diet.
Anyway my main hate is when you here them crap on about how could you eat that ex-living thing, your a monster and so on, these deaths and the subsequent digestion of the diciest happens all the time. No creature on this earth is immune from being eaten. I don't see these people in the ocean telling off sharks that they are being cruel to us when they are in the middle of the 3rd drowning victem.
These people annoy me, and I want them to all go away... to like, America or something. Thank you.
Douche vegan: The meat section of supermarkets is essentially an animal graveyard in my opinion.
Reporter: If you’re at the checkout with somebody who's got say, you know a try of steaks do you say anything to them?
Douche vegan: Arr, sometimes I do sometimes I don't. I pick my moments.
Reporter: So how dose that go down?
Douche vegan: There are different reactions people usually get extremely defensive and people usually try to defend themselves because they do know inherently that what there doing is wrong and not justifiable.
Reporter: Do you think there is an ethical way to eat meat, say if you were living on a farm and looking after the animals yourself?
Douche vegan: No, I don't think we have the right, just because the fact the we are humans, that we have the right to take away the life of another sentient being. It’s simply not morally justifiable on any level.
Reporter: Were here at the mock meat section, would you eat much of this?
Douche vegan: Yeah I eat allot of it, especially when I go out allot of vegan restaurants specialize in allot of different mock meat dishes and mock fish and mock seafood. Yep.
Reporter: There's stuff here like, fake hotdogs and what do you recon, do you recon that it actually tests like meat?
Douche vegan: I serve it to my dad and I don't tell him and he falls for it every time.
Reporter: Really? He doesn’t say, "Hmm there’s something a bit different in this".
Douche vegan: No he doesn’t and I get him take out from vegan restaurants and don't tell him, he falls for that as well.
Reporter: Cause I had some of these hotdogs and they "don't" taste like normal sausages. Is it just because you haven’t eaten meat in so long you recon that you've forgotten what it tastes like?
Douche vegan: I don't remember the taste, I definitely remember the smell because your bombarded with it everywhere you go across this country, but there are some mock meats that do taste dangerously close to what I think meat use to taste like, yeah.
Reporter: Do you think that there’s any problem in where some of this stuff has come from, allot of this is soy based products and soy can be responsible for things like, deforestation in Brazil, is that something you think about?
Douche vegan: Yeah, its definitely something that needs to be considered, but the production of soy and its environmental consequences are not even on the same scale as the production of live stock and meat in Australia, there not even comparable.
Reporter: Iron is the thing that most people would be thinking, "You're vegan, how can you possibly have enough iron in your diet?". So what do you eat?
Douche vegan: Iron levels that are found in plant based material are actually allot higher than in most animal proteins and there are much better sources of iron for you, such as cous cous, dark green leafy vegetables, a variety of nuts and seeds, grains like kinwar(I don’t know what this is), different types of nut-milk are actually very high in iron.
Reporter: Have you ever been tested to see if you are protein or iron deficient?
Douche vegan: Yep, I get tested every 6 months. I get blood tests, and my iron and my protein and my b12 levels are all excellent.
Reporter: Can you smell a meat eater?
Douche vegan: Yep definitely, and vegans taste better as well.
Reporter: What is the smell of a meat-eater?
Douche vegan: It's definitely something you can taste if you kiss someone. I know allot of vegans, who clame that meat-eaters have distinct smells, it's something fat and lactose related I think.
Reporter: Is there a vegan line there, you wont date someone who’s a meat eater?
Douche vegan: Yeah, I would define myself as a vegansexual.
This proceeded to get me very mad, very fast. I really HATE it when people crap on about not eating meat because of animal cruelty issues. The majority of the meat, poultry and fish in this country come from Australia, and there are things that prevent animal cruelty, I think there called laws. Also we have people to enforce these laws, police I think there called as well as the RSPCA and a number of other body's that look into these things so I can safely say then, that animals are treated well and killed humanly. So that gets me onto the comment of the right to take a life of another sentient being, so the obvious thing of animals killing other animals for food leaps to mind for that one. Why can't we eat another animal for food, what reason do you have for judging us on that one? See animals or meat is something that occurs naturally same with vegetables and fruits and so on. We have been eating them for thousands of years, it's what we have evolved to eat. Meat was one of the key factors in the increase of our brains. When we started scavenging the leftover meat from a carcous we started getting more proteins, this was very important in our development of our species. One thing we didn't start doing was eating iron/b12 enriched foods. When you have to start eating modified or vitamin enriched food doesn't that tell you that you are missing something in your diet.
Anyway my main hate is when you here them crap on about how could you eat that ex-living thing, your a monster and so on, these deaths and the subsequent digestion of the diciest happens all the time. No creature on this earth is immune from being eaten. I don't see these people in the ocean telling off sharks that they are being cruel to us when they are in the middle of the 3rd drowning victem.
These people annoy me, and I want them to all go away... to like, America or something. Thank you.
Last edited by Nick on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:15 am; edited 2 times in total
Nick- Super-Corrupt Supreme Overload/Extreme-Executive Producer
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Groove Champion Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:51 am
"Douche vegan: No, I don't think we have the right, just because the fact the we are humans, that we have the right to take away the life of another sentient being. It’s simply not morally justifiable on any level."
That is the attitude I hate. The idea that humans are above nature. We are Omnivores not Herbivores. You can choose to be a Vegetarian/Vegan but you can't choose to be a Herbivore, you are still an Omnivore.
That is the attitude I hate. The idea that humans are above nature. We are Omnivores not Herbivores. You can choose to be a Vegetarian/Vegan but you can't choose to be a Herbivore, you are still an Omnivore.
Groove Champion- I think it's a video game.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Andrew.C Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:54 am
First of all: that was brilliant, just brilliant. I’m overjoyed to see the gentleman’s club being put to such a fine cause, and done in such a fantastic way. That rant’s going to be hella-hard to top. Nice going Chief.
Second: Title of topic and title of vegan were perfect.
Now to comment on the actual article. In my (not so humble but more kick-ass) opinion ‘yes, vegan = tool’ in the sense that they are entirely wrong in their opinions of meat-eating (hey, they might be less toolish in other areas but that’s not what we’re here about). The one small area that I wouldn’t be in agreement would be the issue of people not eating meat because of taste reasons, but that is also a little side issue requiring a whole discussion to itself which soon I (or someone else) might address.
I guess two main sub-topics to pick out of this argument is the Moral issue, and the Nutritional issue (there could be others).
Nutritional issue.
I’ll start here cause it’s the easiest. Everything vegans say is wrong (…mmm, that was even easier than I had anticipated). There is absolutely nothing that can be gained from eating vegetables that can’t be gained from eating meat, in fact often it’s the reverse (disregarding phytotoxins and what-not which is why vegetables should obviously be eaten as well). There’s evidence to suggest that consuming too much red-meat can lead to health problems. This seems likely, but it’s seems to be because of the ludicrous quantities that western societies (perhaps others) consume. If it was just reduced then the related health problems seemingly would as well. In addition, they also say that it depends on the animal: for various understandable reasons humans have relied mainly on cattle to provide a large amount of their red-meat, which, apparently, is just not real good; it is suggested that ‘game’ animals e.g. antelope, would be significantly better for our health. This is to say nothing of so called white-meat which has had nothing but a good rap (perhaps overly good, in my opinion). Humans are omnivorous, you can’t escape that. Our bodies have spent a rather ridiculously long time being honed to take advantage of meat (and what an incredible advantage it gave us: see the story about how massive increases in brain volume would unlikely have been possible without meat, but that’s really not the point, just interesting). Yeah it seems possible to ‘live’ without eating meat, but you have to be especially careful about what you eat and monitor you body like buggery. The negative health of effects of meat are basically bogus, unless consumed in prodigious quantities for extended periods of time (which most people seem to strive for..(wtf?)) and the positive effects of vegetables are over exaggerated i.e. yeah you gotta eat vegetables, no shit, but you’re still going to die as you’re body slowly degrades like everybody else’s (fascinatingly genetics may play the biggest part of all).
Anyho, I’ll leave it at that for the moment. Obviously I’m ready to be corrected on any one of those points, seeing as how ‘no, I’m not an expert, but thanks for asking.’. But that’s never stopped anyone. Ever.
Second: Title of topic and title of vegan were perfect.
Now to comment on the actual article. In my (not so humble but more kick-ass) opinion ‘yes, vegan = tool’ in the sense that they are entirely wrong in their opinions of meat-eating (hey, they might be less toolish in other areas but that’s not what we’re here about). The one small area that I wouldn’t be in agreement would be the issue of people not eating meat because of taste reasons, but that is also a little side issue requiring a whole discussion to itself which soon I (or someone else) might address.
I guess two main sub-topics to pick out of this argument is the Moral issue, and the Nutritional issue (there could be others).
Nutritional issue.
I’ll start here cause it’s the easiest. Everything vegans say is wrong (…mmm, that was even easier than I had anticipated). There is absolutely nothing that can be gained from eating vegetables that can’t be gained from eating meat, in fact often it’s the reverse (disregarding phytotoxins and what-not which is why vegetables should obviously be eaten as well). There’s evidence to suggest that consuming too much red-meat can lead to health problems. This seems likely, but it’s seems to be because of the ludicrous quantities that western societies (perhaps others) consume. If it was just reduced then the related health problems seemingly would as well. In addition, they also say that it depends on the animal: for various understandable reasons humans have relied mainly on cattle to provide a large amount of their red-meat, which, apparently, is just not real good; it is suggested that ‘game’ animals e.g. antelope, would be significantly better for our health. This is to say nothing of so called white-meat which has had nothing but a good rap (perhaps overly good, in my opinion). Humans are omnivorous, you can’t escape that. Our bodies have spent a rather ridiculously long time being honed to take advantage of meat (and what an incredible advantage it gave us: see the story about how massive increases in brain volume would unlikely have been possible without meat, but that’s really not the point, just interesting). Yeah it seems possible to ‘live’ without eating meat, but you have to be especially careful about what you eat and monitor you body like buggery. The negative health of effects of meat are basically bogus, unless consumed in prodigious quantities for extended periods of time (which most people seem to strive for..(wtf?)) and the positive effects of vegetables are over exaggerated i.e. yeah you gotta eat vegetables, no shit, but you’re still going to die as you’re body slowly degrades like everybody else’s (fascinatingly genetics may play the biggest part of all).
Anyho, I’ll leave it at that for the moment. Obviously I’m ready to be corrected on any one of those points, seeing as how ‘no, I’m not an expert, but thanks for asking.’. But that’s never stopped anyone. Ever.
Andrew.C- Larry David In Training
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Nick Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:19 am
Andrew.C wrote:...I’m not an expert
I too am no expert but it seems many of the vegans out there are just as dumb as us. The first page of the forum - http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=40522 is testament to that. The crap they pull about "that brain development occurred because of increased stimulation", if that was the case there would be some of us with pretty big fucken heads right now(though my head is pretty big...). Anyway back to nutritional issues, I found this very quickly on a vegan website.
To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:
1. Eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (mcg or mg) of B12 a day or
2. Take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms or
3. Take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.
THAT'S NOT FREAKEN NORMAL!
Why would you think a diet that contains daily vitamin supplements is healthy. I can tell that's a bad diet straight away, if you have to import B12 into your body because your not getting it in your foods the diet isn't covering everything you need, vegan diets are hocum.
I am not sure about iron though from everything I have heard apart from meat, mushrooms and spinach are the next best source of this but to get the same amount of iron from a small pice of meat you would have to pretty much do nothing all day but eat them.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Groove Champion Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:00 am
In regards to brain development, if our ancestors didn't crack open the skulls of their prey and feast on the goo inside then we wouldn't have evolved to the point where we could choose to be vegetarian/vegan.
Groove Champion- I think it's a video game.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Andrew.C Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:11 am
Yeah the B12 issue is important for vegans, also the Iron. I think it's been said that the sources of iron in plants are much more difficult for our digestive tracts to extract, but I guess all that isn't really important if you watch your health.
Moral Issue.
When I thought about this topic I realised I didn't actually have much to say about it, but I got my typing pants on now so...:
Is it 'wrong' to kill an animal to eat it? Possibly, I don't know. I'm not even sure the question makes sense. But I am sure that to look into it seriously leads you into a never ending spiral of further questions, all almost unanswerable. If there is anything wrong with eating animals then there too is something wrong with eating plants; there just as much a part of this biosphere as animals are, you Kingdom-centred prejudiced SOBs.
I'm just hanging out for the days when everything comes in pills. Problem solved. If there was one.
Moral Issue.
When I thought about this topic I realised I didn't actually have much to say about it, but I got my typing pants on now so...:
Is it 'wrong' to kill an animal to eat it? Possibly, I don't know. I'm not even sure the question makes sense. But I am sure that to look into it seriously leads you into a never ending spiral of further questions, all almost unanswerable. If there is anything wrong with eating animals then there too is something wrong with eating plants; there just as much a part of this biosphere as animals are, you Kingdom-centred prejudiced SOBs.
I'm just hanging out for the days when everything comes in pills. Problem solved. If there was one.
Andrew.C- Larry David In Training
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Groove Champion Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:29 am
Is it 'wrong' to destroy the natural environment and the animals that live in to grow crops?
Vege-wankers are still killing animals, they're just not eating them. Apparently that makes it alright.
Vege-wankers are still killing animals, they're just not eating them. Apparently that makes it alright.
Groove Champion- I think it's a video game.
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Andrew.C- Larry David In Training
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Groove Champion Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:11 am
I hope you had your arms in the air while typing that.
That's right.
That's right.
Groove Champion- I think it's a video game.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Andrew.C Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:06 am
Kinda related:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/seoul-aims-to-reclassify-dogs-as-livestock/2008/04/03/1206851042757.html?sssdmh=dm16.309182
How can anyone hold such obviously conflicting views, e.g. dog meat different from cow meat, in their minds at the same time. The mind is a curious thing indeed.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/seoul-aims-to-reclassify-dogs-as-livestock/2008/04/03/1206851042757.html?sssdmh=dm16.309182
How can anyone hold such obviously conflicting views, e.g. dog meat different from cow meat, in their minds at the same time. The mind is a curious thing indeed.
Andrew.C- Larry David In Training
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Glenjamin Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:53 am
I didn't even need to read the article- the title tells me what i need to know- the smh's racism team strike again!
can't say i'm a fan of eating dog (can't be thinking there'd be much meat compared to a cow), but if they're doing it in a humane (that is NOT CRUEL) way, whatever.
can't say i'm a fan of eating dog (can't be thinking there'd be much meat compared to a cow), but if they're doing it in a humane (that is NOT CRUEL) way, whatever.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by MRac MC Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:50 am
Actually if you'd read the article it was quite impartial.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Glenjamin Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:18 am
I was elected to Lead, not to Read!
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Nick Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:15 am
Marc did that in the section about sports + drugs. Lets keep our quotes fresh and not let bad habits creep in.
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Re: (Vegetables + people) - meat = Tools!
by Andrew.C Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:28 pm
Here’s something that I thought was interesting and may be applicable to your original gripe, Nick. It’s more to do with the vegan’s assumption, in my opinion incorrect assumption, that a vegan diet is more ‘natural’ i.e. closer to what our ancient ‘noble savage’ human ancestors would have eaten before being corrupted by meat consumption. I’m not even sure if any vegan’s actually hold this view, but I wanted to post this anyways because I thought it was cool. It’s a little long, but that's because this author has a magical way with words that left me powerless to cut anything but the most unnecessary bits.
“Many of our staple food crops, including wheat, oats, barley, rye and maize, are members of the grass family which have become greatly modified since the dawn of agriculture by inadvertent and later deliberate human selection. It is possible that we too have become genetically modified over the millennia to increase our tolerance of cereals, in a way parallel to our evolution of tolerance to milk. Starchy cereals such as wheat and oats cannot have featured prominently in our diets before the Agricultural Revolution. Unlike oranges and strawberries, cereal seeds do not ‘want’ to be eaten. Passing through an animal’s digestive tract is no part of their dispersal strategy, as it is of plum and tomato seeds. On our side of the relationship, the human digestive tract is not able, unaided, to absorb much nutriment from seeds of the grass family, with their meager starch reserves and hard, unsympathetic husks. Some aid comes from milling and cooking, but it also seems conceivable that, in parallel with the evolution of tolerance to milk, we might have evolved an increased physiological tolerance to wheat, compared to our wild ancestors.”
So it’s interesting to see that eating things like wheat is something that our bodies have only very recently acquired the ability to do, so... I guess it doesn’t really have any relevance, but still cool, isn’t it?
“Many of our staple food crops, including wheat, oats, barley, rye and maize, are members of the grass family which have become greatly modified since the dawn of agriculture by inadvertent and later deliberate human selection. It is possible that we too have become genetically modified over the millennia to increase our tolerance of cereals, in a way parallel to our evolution of tolerance to milk. Starchy cereals such as wheat and oats cannot have featured prominently in our diets before the Agricultural Revolution. Unlike oranges and strawberries, cereal seeds do not ‘want’ to be eaten. Passing through an animal’s digestive tract is no part of their dispersal strategy, as it is of plum and tomato seeds. On our side of the relationship, the human digestive tract is not able, unaided, to absorb much nutriment from seeds of the grass family, with their meager starch reserves and hard, unsympathetic husks. Some aid comes from milling and cooking, but it also seems conceivable that, in parallel with the evolution of tolerance to milk, we might have evolved an increased physiological tolerance to wheat, compared to our wild ancestors.”
R. Dawkins, The Ancestor’s Tale
So it’s interesting to see that eating things like wheat is something that our bodies have only very recently acquired the ability to do, so... I guess it doesn’t really have any relevance, but still cool, isn’t it?
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