Faith Vs. Religion Vs. Santa Claus Vs. The Martians

No the name isn't entirely what this thread is about, but i thought that seeing as it has cropped up elsewhere (and not just thru me) this is a thread that probably needs to be written.

Why don't we start off with some ground rules:
1. This is just about being clear with what our individual beliefs are.
2. This isn't about right or wrong, you may not agree but do try to respect each others views.
3. Don't get angry (or make personal attacks)- insulting someone based on their beliefs is really quite low.
4. Be honest- we are all mates, so this isn't about trying to score points off one another.

We made need more rules, but i just want to see where everyone's at, and would like to see some healthy discussion on a topic that (especially with WYD just having happened) is fairly current.

I'll start first (yes Marc i'm posting twice, more to differentiate between my personal thoughts and the purpose of the post).

I am a Christian. i believe the bible is the authoritative words of God, and that Jesus Christ is His Son. The bible says the only way to God is thru Jesus and that He is Lord and Saviour of the world. I believe the whole world has the problem is ignoring or disobeying God (myself included) and that Jesus is the only solution to that problem (spoken of in the bible as 'sin' or 'iniquity'). I know that by trusting in what Jesus did on the cross (dying to take the punishment for sin) God will look on me and forgive me, which gains me entrance to heaven.

I think that's enough to start with, anyone else?

Are we saying what we all believe then we start THE debate or do you have something else in mind?

I am agnostic, leaning toward complete atheism.

Edit - On second thoughts I just can't find myself believing in any god.

Is there some sort of non-complete atheist then? And what's he do?

Not careing that much about religion or science.

Believes in just one god.

(Mine was better.)

Marc wrote:Believes in just one god.

Niiiice.

Seriously though, more accurately I'm an agnostic who leans heavily towards believing that there is no god. Happy?

Mmmm, not especially...

But yeah, I'm sorry for taking (at least, contributing) to taking this topic down a trail of bad jokes.

Nah, I will try post something laters on, when I've had time to think and give, perhaps, the proper response that this topic (as in, anyone who has a serious topical issue to discuss's topic) deserves.

EDIT: Also, sorry, I like how you two had serious responses. I'll work on that.

I was thinking your responce to this wouldn't fit on one line.

What's that supposed to mean? You sayin' you wanna piece o' me?!

EDIT(Nick) - NO, stop junking up this thread.

EDIT(Andrew) - You're the Junkster! You wanna piece a me?! Youuuu gottit!

EDIT(Marc) - You crazy kids...don't make me come back there.

Nice work with the ground rules, you seemed to cover it nicely. The first thing that I’ll say is that I must insist, or at least plead desperately with you, that you refrain from using txt-speak in the Gentlemen’s Club – in other posts I have no problem, because usually it’s funny, but in the GC, no. I’m referring, of course, to your use of “thru” on no less than two separate and noted occasions. Thank you, that’s my smartassery out of the way.

Sharing Nick’s confusion about what exactly you want us to start with I’ll just assume – citing your Rule 1. – that you do just want us to get out on the table what each of our individual beliefs are, which I guess is why Marc and Nick have already kindly done so, so I guess that is what you want.

This could obviously spiral into a confusing and messy (and certainly beyond my comfort zone) discussion of what words like ‘belief’, ‘truth’ and ‘knowledge’, amongst others, actually mean (not that we’d come to any conclusion even if we did discuss it) and what it means to have/experience any one of those. And so to avoid the tedious and vain epistemological argument (an oh so important argument, and most definitely one that would need to be had if we were ever going to get anywhere in the discussion) I’ll just give a bare-bones account of where it is that I am at, mainly to try avoid confusing myself.
I do share the same, seemingly pretentious, aversion to the term “Atheist” (or even perhaps “Agnostic” though to a lesser extent and perhaps for different reasons) that many pompous ‘scholars’ who are attached to this field (and many who aren’t) have because of its shifted definition/feeling. Not that I know a huge amount about the history of the term “Atheist”, but it does seem to be obvious (I’ve heard it expressed often, sometimes right in front me) that, in addition to other misunderstandings, people harbour the false idea that Atheism is just another, alternative, belief; and a belief akin to any other religion, expressing and requiring the same degree of ‘faith’ (often the word of choice) that most theists hold and are possibly often criticised for. This is wrong. To be brief once again, all I’ll say is that Atheism is the absence of any belief, specifically a theistic belief; it is not a belief.

So, when I consider the above, I’m left feeling that I can’t really state exactly what I am – I certainly can’t state my theistic beliefs, because I have none – all I can really do, I think, is to respond to your statement above about ‘believing X, Y and Z’ by saying that I don’t believe X, Y and Z.

Fair enough... actually the purpose of this thread is an opportunity to state what we do believe (be it orthodox Christianity (mine), orthodox Atheism (Marc's) or other (Andy's), simply so that we are all clear on what it is the other believes.

if any debate is to occur, (as i believe the above is more than enough for 50+ posts, just on clarifying and what not) i would hope it was along the lines of why do you believe X, Y and Z? , rather than- "i think youse things is stoopid, etc".

Does that clear up reasonings for this thread?

Yes, except you've already got my beliefs wrong.

how? i thought you said you were Atheist (there is no god), leaning toward Agnostic (There is a god/ higher power, but we cannot know or understand them) this is what Orthodox Atheism looks like here in post-modern Australia. I was probably a little liberal in saying I hold to Orthodox Christianity as there are many people who call themselves Christian who deny the validity of the bible- but i won't bore you with the difference between Evangelical Christianity and Liberal Christianity.

Glenjamin wrote:how? i thought you said you were Atheist (there is no god), leaning toward Agnostic...

I think it was the other way round cheif.

No, I said I was agnostic leaning towards atheism; and if we're going to tell you what we believe so that you can say "No, that's really this..." then I don't see the point of this thread.

But Andy has made some really good points and I would like to subscribe to his newsletter

I didn't mean to tell you what you really mean- i was trying to be concise... newsletter?

Edit

Sorry- i see where i went wrong now, a simple misunderstanding, sorry Marc.

Fair enough.

It's an old joke, you know, when you agree with someone you say "I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter." You never heard us say that before?

Nope.

I'm wondering why Trev and Simmo haven't exploded onto this thread- one to make caustic posts and the other to explain his side of things?

Neither would be bad, so long as they were within the bounds of the rules...

Well, I don't think Simmo's been on here and I think you are over estimating how much Trev cares for a topic like this.

Fair enough- it might be nice to get their sides of the die...

To clarify, Nick you think (belief/understand) there is no God, Nothing in control?

Glenjamin wrote:To clarify, Nick you think (belief/understand) there is no God, Nothing in control?

Well as far as I am concerned there is no God(s) and nothing in control. To me all religion and those sorts of beliefs are about as plausible as magic. Personally I think the only reason religion is around is because people seem to be after answers to these deep philosophical questions. I mean why does there have to be an answer to everything, why is everyone so obsessed with questions like "what's the meaning of life?". I personally don't think there is one, apart from the iffy "reproduction" answer. Then there's the whole "what happens to me when I die?" question. If you think about that question from my point of view, it's a very bleak question that actually sends shivers down my spine every time my mind wanders there. It's a hard question to deal with, and it's questions just like those that I think drives people to a form of religious beliefs because religion has answers. Answers questions and gives meaning, that's what religion to me seams to boil down to. And don't even get me started on the whole thing about this world being so perfect, it must have been created for us thing.